Menswe@r, whom I dislike

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AdvertBreak
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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by AdvertBreak » 25 Mar 2016, 03:02

No no no. Elastica are great!

Due to numerous reasons, including John Harris, and the fact they were arty instead of slouchy, I don't picture them as part of the third rate bands. And I don't think the debut album lacks at all. So the two biggest hits were by Wire and The Stranglers, but as far as rip-offs go, they throw even Noel in the water. Connection trumps over Menswear's Wire rip-offs any day. Far as I see, the entire album holds up very well today, as do some of the other new wave of new wave bands such as These Animal Men.

Also, they were big in America, just as Courtney Love predicted. The debut sold 500,000 copies there. And it and the band seem loved today still. Can't say that for the apparent lesser bands that you say were close. Elastica was no. 191 in NME's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time a few years ago (I know, too high, but you should see how awful this list is anyway). Stutter was in the top 100 of Pitchfork's best 90s songs, compiled in 2010.

The eventual follow-up The Menace, hmm, well, it's no 13 (hahahaha) and yet its still a highly enjoyable post-punk record.

As for Dodgy. Yeah they're a bit shit, but they weren't they doing their sort of thing before Britpop actually began anyway? Their debut came out in June 1993. So credit in that respect. Also, the video for Staying Out for the Summer has Alton Barnes White Horse in it, so they're good okay :lol:

Go back to dislking, like, Longpigs or Dubstar or something. :lol:

[Side comments: Why did Paul Weller walk around Britpop like he was its father, resigning to the somewhat mediocrity of some of his little fans in bands with 'Stanley Road'?...Why on earth did shoegaze bands suddenly find themselves Britpop? [It worked for Blur...] Boo Radleys' Wake Up Boo! is horrid and such a shame that it came straight after the great Giant Steps. Lush's Lovelife isn't so bad though, but it was their last album. Ride used to be so good but then they started to suck so badly with Carnival of Light, with moments of exception imo. Yes I know there's obvious answers to these questions but it's a bit of a shame, really]

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by 101reykjavik » 25 Mar 2016, 10:42

Just specifcially on your Paul Weller remark, AB. You're right, there was a sense of Weller being billed in the press for a while as the elder statesman who begat Britpop, but I think that mostly came from one man - Noel Gallagher. I don't think anyone else was particuarly looking towards Weller as totemic figurehead of anything, or even musical inspiration particularly, were they? But Noel understandably held a lot of sway at the time so the music press ran with that narrative for a year or two I guess.
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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by mr_spenalzo » 25 Mar 2016, 17:40

AdvertBreak wrote: Go back to dislking, like, Longpigs or Dubstar or something. :lol:
Piss off, Dubstar were great!

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by AdvertBreak » 25 Mar 2016, 20:22

I know! :lol: I'm big fans of both of their 90s albums. I was referencing a particularly infamous Britpop thread I had read on /mu/, although I realise that it was still as obvious as knowing what colour shirt I'm wearing.

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by dparrott » 27 Mar 2016, 16:45

Mallard No. 22 wrote: But I think that the differences between e.g. Elastica, ... Mansun can be negligible.
Um...WHAT? Mansun are a million times better and more creative than Elastica! Their album Six alone proves that. They deserve better recognition than being "britpop castaways".

And the Bluetones are one of the only bands that have been going steady since the 90's, so they're close to the Charlatans level by now.

Dubstar! haha I still love their song Stars. And their last album Make It Better had some good songs.

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by AdvertBreak » 27 Mar 2016, 17:15

Oh, I forgot to comment about Mansun.

Yeah, Mansun are awesome! Heck, they were more ambitious than any Britpop band, if not actually quite as consistently good as Blur. But they're one of the best.

And besides do they really count as Britpop? Neo-psychedelic space rock-style prog rock with influences as broad as electronica and baroque. Oh yeah, that's definitely the same ;) Grey Lantern...phenomenal record. I don't even know where to begin. Six is loved religiously by many although I think its a bit flawed but heck, if it ain't admirably huge in its ambitious scope. And then no Britpop band put on a total curveball and made an electro-R&B indie record, so.

As a bonus, Paul Draper is my friend of Facebook 8-)

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 30 Mar 2016, 07:07

I don't think Paul Weller particularly put himself about as a 'father-figure to Britpop'. As 101reykjavik mentions, it was probably Noel Gallagher (& the music press) who gave him this status.

As AB suggests, Dodgy were probably doing their own thing but their success aligned with the Britpop period. I do remember that they weren't particularly tied in with Britpop by the music press. And I think that their brand of cheery guitar music could have been successful in other periods of musical history.

I think that 'Britpop' in its most distilled form (e.g. Elastica, Sleeper, Echobelly, Cast, Menswear) could be quite limited. It was other artists (Pulp, Dodgy, Mansun, Dubstar, Super Furry Animals, Longpigs etc) who filled out the scene. Many of these may not have been directly 'Britpop' (& might not have wanted to be) but there are a lot of overlaps.
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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by AdvertBreak » 06 Apr 2016, 04:26

Yeah, but he didn't half play up to it, no? Despite his favourite type of music being soul (he left that alone after the deep house Style Council album that was refused a release by Polydor), he spent Britpop making Britpop music. Stanley Road and Heavy Soul. Not bad albums really but a bit dry, if that makes sense. Not first-tier Britpop. Imo, anyway. Bit boring at times and lacking in the urgency and energy of, well, Oasis, and I need to be in the mood for them which is rare anyway because I'd always rather listen to something else, like The Jam. But anyway, he also continued to feature the likes of Noel himself on his albums. Noel and Graham for his 22 Dreams in 2008, his first great (imo) album since Wild Wood and most adventurous since Confessions of a Pop Group.

Having said that, this "Britpop" sound for Weller started on his first solo album back in 1992, so like Dodgy it wasn't at least to begin with influenced by Britpop. A lot of overlaps and such, as you say Mallard. I think a lot of people forget the meaning of the word Britpop anyway, when you see the likes of Radiohead and dance tracks like Firestarter or Born Slippy .NUXX on 'Britpop' lists etc. It isn't just one giant melting pot for all the British alternative music of the time.

One of the best Britpop albums was American. The Brian Jonestown Massacre's "Take it from the Man!", and a lot of the best British alternative albums of the era weren't Britpop, and in fact quite the opposite (in relation to 60s pop influence and not 90s-innovative experimental influence), such as Disco Inferno's D. I. Go Pop, Stereolab's Emperor Tomato Ketchup, etc.

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 09 Apr 2016, 07:07

AdvertBreak wrote:Having said that, this "Britpop" sound for Weller started on his first solo album back in 1992, so like Dodgy it wasn't at least to begin with influenced by Britpop. A lot of overlaps and such, as you say Mallard. I think a lot of people forget the meaning of the word Britpop anyway
From the early 90s there was a general influence of 'retro' in music. Which hadn't really happened before. This pre-dated and then inspired Britpop.
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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by AdvertBreak » 10 Apr 2016, 00:10

Nah it began in the 80s with indie pop and so forth. The Smiths. C86. A sunny 60s influence, which was then amplified in 1989 with the Stone Rosesly and then sunshine pop started appearing in the likes of The La's and so forth. Britpop was the next step I guess.

Hey, in The Last Party, I remember John talking about there being a scene of boring "T-shirt rock" bands at the same time as shoegaze, but I don't remember him naming any examples.

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Re: Menswe@r, whom I dislike

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 15 Apr 2016, 06:51

Things like C86 bubbled away under the surface, but the mainstream rarely saw it. The (later) 80s was very much concerned with 'the now' rather than 'the then' (in all aspects of life). Even long-established artists like The Bee Gees, Fleetwood Mac and Genesis had to be totally contemporary and not acknowledge their back catalogue.

The Smiths very much had a 60s vibe. Though popular, their songs suffered from cliched 80s indie production to my ears. A mini-revival in Sandie Shaw's career was also directly accountable to The Smiths. Such was the adversity to the past, when Sandie was interviewed in 1987 she "couldn't remember" her prog album 'Reviewing The Situation' (1969).

To my mind it was the indie dance scene that introduced 'retro' to the main audience. Whether through sampling or cover versions, or e.g. with the Stone Roses or Primal Scream whose sound emulated late 60s music. Daytime Radio 1 took to it to some extent, IIRC Gary Davies and Jakki Brambles in particular.

Perhaps it was because the audience was ready for it? When a music genre reaches 20-25 years old, it has two audiences: those in middle-age who remember it fondly, and their children who enjoy it for the first time. This explains e.g. the Britpop and Abba revivals of the 90s, and more recently the ongoing career strands of Take That and The Spice Girls (collectively and as individuals).
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