The Black Sabbath Thread

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KingLouieLouie76
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The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by KingLouieLouie76 » 25 Nov 2014, 05:33

I believe Black Sabbath should be considered one of the most influential bands of all-time! Ozzy to me is them....I never got into the Dio era much (even though they had some top-notch albums w/him)....How does everyone else think?
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mr_spenalzo
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by mr_spenalzo » 25 Nov 2014, 19:36

I quite like the first 5 or 6 records. From the non-Ozzy records I've only heard Heaven & Hell, which I once blogged about. I'll be a bit vain, and quote what I wrote (but not vain enough to link to my blog hehe):
You could say Black Sabbath’s first without Ozzy’s ahead of its time; it’s not too far-fetched to be reminded of Iron Maiden, Metallica, Guns N’ Roses, Nirvana, Alice In Chains or even Generation Terrorists-era Manic Street Preachers over the course of Heaven And Hell. Song after song’s brilliantly written, arranged and performed. It all sounds a bit more elastic and loose than the classic early albums of their career.

So it’s a shame there are so many God-awful lyrics here. A sample:

“In the misty morning on the edge of time / We’ve lost the rising sun, the final sign”.
“Sing me a song, you’re a singer”.
“Throw me a penny and I’ll make you a dream / You find that life’s not always what it seems, no no”.
“Yell with the wind, though the wind won’t help you fly at all”.
“Lord she’s handsome as she flows across the floor / Nothing I’ve seen in my life has ever pleased me more”.
“It’s a long way to nowhere and I’m leaving very soon”.

And that’s just the opening lines. Now you could just about get away with that when mumbled under a layer of eardrum piercing feedback à la My Bloody Valentine, but not when your singer’s Ronnie James Dio, who doesn’t have the type of pipes to “do” restraint. He emphasises the lyrical bollocks.

It ruins a musically marvelous album.

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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by KingLouieLouie76 » 26 Nov 2014, 02:54

mr_spenalzo wrote:I quite like the first 5 or 6 records. From the non-Ozzy records I've only heard Heaven & Hell, which I once blogged about. I'll be a bit vain, and quote what I wrote (but not vain enough to link to my blog hehe):
You could say Black Sabbath’s first without Ozzy’s ahead of its time; it’s not too far-fetched to be reminded of Iron Maiden, Metallica, Guns N’ Roses, Nirvana, Alice In Chains or even Generation Terrorists-era Manic Street Preachers over the course of Heaven And Hell. Song after song’s brilliantly written, arranged and performed. It all sounds a bit more elastic and loose than the classic early albums of their career.

So it’s a shame there are so many God-awful lyrics here. A sample:

“In the misty morning on the edge of time / We’ve lost the rising sun, the final sign”.
“Sing me a song, you’re a singer”.
“Throw me a penny and I’ll make you a dream / You find that life’s not always what it seems, no no”.
“Yell with the wind, though the wind won’t help you fly at all”.
“Lord she’s handsome as she flows across the floor / Nothing I’ve seen in my life has ever pleased me more”.
“It’s a long way to nowhere and I’m leaving very soon”.

And that’s just the opening lines. Now you could just about get away with that when mumbled under a layer of eardrum piercing feedback à la My Bloody Valentine, but not when your singer’s Ronnie James Dio, who doesn’t have the type of pipes to “do” restraint. He emphasises the lyrical bollocks.

It ruins a musically marvelous album.
Your blog entry is spot on! I would have seen them in concert if Bill Ward was touring w/them.....I wish he would settle his differences w/them... They're obviously not the same w/out him on drums!
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 26 Nov 2014, 07:56

I think Ozzy was the catalyst for the success of that band.

That is not to say that other members would not have been successful, e.g. Tony Iommi was on the scene as a member of Jethro Tull for a short time, appearing in the Rolling Stones 'Rock n Roll Circus'.
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by KingLouieLouie76 » 14 Dec 2014, 16:10

Mallard No. 22 wrote:I think Ozzy was the catalyst for the success of that band.

That is not to say that other members would not have been successful, e.g. Tony Iommi was on the scene as a member of Jethro Tull for a short time, appearing in the Rolling Stones 'Rock n Roll Circus'.

Agree with you there... Yeah....Iommi seemed so out of place during that "A Song Of Jeffery" performance... I think Bill Ward still would have hit it big since he's a very proficient drummer...Perhaps Geezer because you cannot deny his genius bass lines...... It's all about "NIB" for me!
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 16 Dec 2014, 08:36

Rock bands could have changing personnel in those early days of rock, late 60s-early 70s. It was considered that the album was the subject, and musicians could be hired for it, and then move on.

There were many interesting combinations, including Tony Iommi with Jethro Tull, Greg Lake with King Crimson, and of course the various projects that Eric Clapton did e.g. Derek & The Dominoes as detailed on this forum.
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by KingLouieLouie76 » 16 Dec 2014, 16:54

Mallard No. 22 wrote:Rock bands could have changing personnel in those early days of rock, late 60s-early 70s. It was considered that the album was the subject, and musicians could be hired for it, and then move on.

There were many interesting combinations, including Tony Iommi with Jethro Tull, Greg Lake with King Crimson, and of course the various projects that Eric Clapton did e.g. Derek & The Dominoes as detailed on this forum.
And that's something I admit I'm against at times. I'm only always for bands that the same personnel remained in tact, but I know that was especially difficult back then due to extensive drug use and such. But now, the longevity of current bands seems to be four years or less than general. But, I do love those Supergroups every now and then!
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 18 Dec 2014, 08:14

The way e.g. Eric Clapton moved around in 1968-70 (Cream, Blind Faith, Delaney & Bonnie, Derek & The Dominoes) was typical of this. At the time songwriting, production, management and record labels independent of the traditional majors were just breaking through.

I haven't looked into it deeply, but there are probably at least two aspects. Perhaps there was a continuation of how pop stars had been treated by showbusiness previously. Build them up quickly, milk them, then bring something new along in a year or so.

There was a creative side in that certain top musicians wanted to work with other top musicians. Industry figures like Andrew Oldham and Robert Stigwood probably saw the financial possibilities. By making different partnerships, it would encourage continuing interest in the artists. Although those artists would probably not be making the real money out of the situation.
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by KingLouieLouie76 » 24 Dec 2014, 15:55

Mallard No. 22 wrote:The way e.g. Eric Clapton moved around in 1968-70 (Cream, Blind Faith, Delaney & Bonnie, Derek & The Dominoes) was typical of this. At the time songwriting, production, management and record labels independent of the traditional majors were just breaking through.

I haven't looked into it deeply, but there are probably at least two aspects. Perhaps there was a continuation of how pop stars had been treated by showbusiness previously. Build them up quickly, milk them, then bring something new along in a year or so.

There was a creative side in that certain top musicians wanted to work with other top musicians. Industry figures like Andrew Oldham and Robert Stigwood probably saw the financial possibilities. By making different partnerships, it would encourage continuing interest in the artists. Although those artists would probably not be making the real money out of the situation.

In EC's case, I believe it was more the creative side. It seemed Cream was losing its "hardcore" Blues identity in the end, but also conflicts between Bruce and Baker really doomed them in. He joins forces w/Winwood, but EC got swept away from the Blue-Eyed Soul sound of D&B and that essentially formed the basis of D&TD, but drugs and some creative struggles did them in.

Regarding Sabbath (and several other bands), they should change their name once a significant member parts company (regardless if it's death or not).... Dio had no business being classified as a Black Sabbath member and ever sing any of the classics that Ozzy was involved in. I know several will disagree with me on that!
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by Mallard No. 22 » 29 Dec 2014, 07:36

The artist name had become a brand in itself.

In some ways this was a manifestation of what was envisaged in the late 60s. That the artist was a 'concept' in itself, the name could continue even if the personnel did not. But it was for commercial, rather than artistic reasons.

It all turned into a bit of a cabaret show. An early example of this was with Deep Purple, who had split in 1976, having already replaced key personnel. A 'revived' Purple toured in 1980 with original (pre-Gillan) singer Rod Evans, and no other ex-Purple members. The fans easily figured they had been short-changed.
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Re: The Black Sabbath Thread

Post by davidsutter » 29 Dec 2014, 07:43

I think the Dio albums (and Born Again) are perfectly valid Sabbath albums.
It was kind of bullshit starting in the late eighties where Tony was the only original member, though.

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